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Author Topic: "Judeo-Christian-Islamic Divinism" concept consultation  (Read 3027 times)
Gareth Southwell
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Posts: 192

« Reply #15 on: 01/10/09 @ 08:40 »

@ Cygnus:

I think, in terms of Western philosophy, it is the idea of being 'manifest' that we need to explore here. If you say that something is unmanifest, then it simply means that it has not been made apparent to the senses, or remains latent or hidden. So, if we have a collection of seeds of different varieties, then the nature of each seed can be said to be unmanifest, because we don't necessarily know from looking at them what plants they will turn out to be.

However, when you talk of existence itself being manifest or unmanifest, then it gets more problematic. For something to be unmanifest, the potential for it to be manifest must reside in something (the potential to be a plant resides in a seed) - but what does the potential for existence itself reside in? 'Reside' implies a form of existence, so the potential for existence resides in existence?! I think there are two options (and I'm not sure which one Greg is arguing for):

1. The creative potential for the unfolding of physical laws, life, etc., is inherent in matter itself (perhaps at some sub-atomic level). However, this implies that the universe already exists (the steady state/eternal universe theory perhaps).

2. The creative potential for existence is inherent in some unmanifest reality. However, this implies a reality which is unmanifest, either (a) some sort of big bang theory, where everything came out of nothing, or (b) some sort of religious explanation, where everything came from an unmanifest divine reality.

I don't necessarily have a problem with either, but I think that there is some confusion/ambiguity concerning the ideas of creative potential and existence that needs to be cleared up.


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Posts: 19

« Reply #16 on: 01/10/09 @ 10:14 »

Cheers Cyrus,

There's a lot of pages and I was hoping that you might supply targetted references to "existence" as ... having self potential for creation of matter that I could then read around.  This would help me direct my attention on issues relating to the self potential that you mention with respect to creation.


Posts: 28

« Reply #17 on: 01/10/09 @ 20:49 »

@ Gareth…

Nicely put, and I agree with absolutely everything you say here. And indeed, I am of the same opinion regarding your points 1 and 2, neither of these models I have a problem with either. In fact the truth of either I would be more than happy to accept.

Science may well prove the validity of model option 1 eventually, yet with option 2, Science will only ever be able to present physical proofs, so may never be in a position to prove the metaphysical existence of God or Brahman. (As to attempt to define some reality or entity that is beyond all descriptions and discriminations would be impossible).

I have never really accepted that the whole Universe exploded and expanded from a "Big bang" singularity, and have always favoured a model where the Universe has existed either timelessly or eternally, yet in an endless state of evolution and flux. However, as I favour the Advaita position at present, I feel it makes sense to keep an open mind as to how the creation of the Universe was actually manifest, (Maya or Prakriti or quantum manifestations? Are these the same thing?). Once again it is all about potential, (energy becomes matter becomes energy), and Advaita presents the ultimate unified theory of everything, for creation, its source and its potential. Either as an Entity or an eternal force of creation? – Brahman (simply) is…


You are neither earth, water, fire, air or even ether.
For liberation know yourself as consisting of consciousness,
the witness of these.
[The Song of Ashtavakra (Ashtavakra Samhita) Chapter 1.3]
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